Illegal Salon Pay Tricks Commission vs 1099 w/ Margaret Ferguson Beyond the Chair Co

[00:00:01] Hey Jason, we got another co-worker that got sexually harassed by the salon owner Oh good, come over here, sit down, show me on the doll where he touched you Real hairdressers telling real stories about their experiences from behind the salon chair And we are now saying the quiet parts out loud

[00:00:28] This is Sh!t I Told My Hairdresser Hello and welcome back to Shit I Told My Hairdresser Paula, how you doing, surviving out there? I got called to jury duty the sixth time in my life Oh god Hairdress, I mean You know, I want to serve on a jury, especially if it has something to do with hairdressers Right, yeah, oh totally, yeah, then I'd mark out for work

[00:00:56] But we're choking on smoke out here I'll wash this on fire Oh yeah, I heard about that But yeah, it kind of sucks But guys, amazing Thank you so much for going through and hitting that subscribe button Remember, it's always free So Amy, where you get this, you hear this podcast Hit that subscribe on Apple, Spotify, wherever you guys are listening to us from Please go through and make sure that you tell all your friends Because we're just like the industry, we're word of mouth So tell 10 people that you like and 20 that you hate Because we definitely want to hurt some little ears

[00:01:26] Follow us on Instagram and on TikTok And just go through and tell us a little bit about what you guys are kind of going through And what you're feeling as well, the two Go on to our website To Shit I Told My Hairdresser.com Leave us a voicemail or send us an email I'm getting to you guys as fast as I possibly can To get you guys onto the show And let us know what's bucking the shit out of you Or what you love And get us on Let's get you on here We definitely want to hear you guys And having said that I, when I went to LA

[00:01:56] When I was working in the salons out there I wanted to work at some really cool salons that were in Beverly Hills And wanted to do the celebrities And I got a rare opportunity and a couple of salons to do that But in order to do that, what happened And Paula, I know this has happened to you It was all the two So it's not, I want to say, just LA I know it's something that happens all across the United States In order to work at these salons I, not, number one

[00:02:24] I had to show my W-2 to make sure They wanted to make sure I actually made money Or my 1099, I should say Just to get my foot in the door to actually have an interview But then I found out that I was 1099 But I was also a commission employee Which meant that they were not in charge of my taxes In fact, I worked at one salon where I was even charged for the credit card fees of 3%

[00:02:51] Every time someone used a credit card to pay for their service So I found out that, guess what? This isn't legal and it shouldn't be done And we started talking out to Margaret from Beyond the Chair And we have Margaret to come on It's great to have you on as a guest today I'm glad to be here And we're going to talk about this shit And also some of the things that hopefully that she's working on

[00:03:20] To kind of go through and help our industry So Margaret, tell us a little bit about yourself Absolutely So thanks so much Jason and Paula for having me Beyond the Chair We are a very new non-profit that's focused on the beauty sector Our organization basically facilitates conversations Around the beauty education reform That is going on across the country But we also facilitate these conversations Around unionizing the beauty and grooming industry Because we used to have unions back in the day And they kind of disappeared Whenever the independent contractors started

[00:03:49] Becoming more popular back in the 1980s And stuff But a little bit like about me, I guess So I worked in the industry for 10 years Before I ran into the issues That our industry really neglects and overlooks Which is you have no employment rights Half the time as a commission stylist Because of the small business loopholes Not only that, there's no real labor protections And then whenever I had to transition out of the industry

[00:04:19] Due to my health, there was no education mobility And so because of those reasons I started Beyond the Chair during my senior year of college I am someone who never thought I would go back to school Ever, ever, ever That was just like not in the cars for me I didn't think I would do it But I ended up going back to school in my 30s I studied philosophy And I actually created my own degree In something called applied aesthetics Meaning I studied the social constructions of beauty And I did filter that through the beauty industry

[00:04:47] And particularly the cosmetology industry And how the education started And everything like that And now I'm getting a master's in public affairs Focusing specifically on the beauty education reform But also beauty regulation reform as well too Because there's a lot of gaps in our regulations And we're not really serving public health benefits At this present moment in time with our licensure So that's a little bit about me and what I do And why Beyond the Chair started Cool So you want to know what though

[00:05:17] Let's jump into You know basically educating people On kind of like what you're doing now And how it's going to benefit And guys this is a hairdresser Who had to leave hairdressing And then is now coming Stepping back into this field To help other people That was something that she had a passion for So let's kind of educate all the people A little bit more on How you're approaching it Yeah so I think that the biggest thing

[00:05:44] That I have taken away from my whole experience Is that if you have any form of privilege Make sure you're passing that privilege on to others To whether that is like in You know whenever you're behind the chair Taking on somebody to mentor Or if it's like me That I've had to move beyond the chair Making sure that I'm using my education To give back to the community And stuff like that So one of the big things that we have been doing Is we actually had our first town hall

[00:06:12] This past weekend for Beyond the Chair Cool And it was small But we you know We started these conversations Around organizing and community building Especially around the concept of unions And the biggest thing Whenever we're talking about unions I think people need to maybe understand The history of why we had unions Back in the day Because our unions were problematic There's no way to sugarcoat that Like they were an issue But there were also A lot of great benefits That they provided To the industry at the same time

[00:06:41] And they progressed the industry as well So I don't know where you want me To start with that though You want to what though Let's just like Why is it important to hairdressers To have a union You know what I mean Especially I think one of the things That we saw was How many people suffered after COVID You know what I mean And like you know Yeah I remember people reaching out And being like I can't get unemployment I don't have any benefits And the reason is Because it hasn't been taught There's been no education To the hairdresser On what they need to do

[00:07:10] Or they're in order Taking their benefits Yeah For funding And then taking it from them They had no idea That money was coming Actually to the hairdresser Or to the students Yeah Yeah And just taking their money And they didn't know Because they're not educated on it And the thing is Hairdressers just want to be creative We just want to cut hair We just want to do makeup And the logistics Yeah And everything It's a naivete That is a luxury But it's also something We really need to Be educated about

[00:07:40] Well I think that there is A lot of unlearning to do Right Like there has been This narrative That has been promoted Over and over And over again That this is an alternative To college It is easy You don't have to Like have like A type of smarts About you to do it And we know that That is not true By any way Shape or form Like it's just It's very unrealistic To position it that way And not only that The way that the education Has even been set up For people to enter this industry They're so undereducated in it That it creates

[00:08:10] This high attrition rate Or the high turnover rate Within the industry Because people aren't prepared For what the reality is They have no real support systems To like help them get started And half the time Whenever you're not able To enter into a commission salon To build your business Then you're pushed into Booth rent You don't have a book built And so of course You're going to starve And if you do make it You are a slim pickings At that point in time Yeah like you're part of Like the very small majority That do make it And because of that

[00:08:40] Small majority We've created this other narrative That it's like Well they can't make it They just weren't meant To do this And it's like Hang on Let's pause And like let's Break down the system Because the system Is actually set up To make people fail Instead of it actually Being something To support somebody And that's the real Ugly side Of the beauty industry So How many times Do you need your butt Kick before you say Okay I'm done Yeah Yeah but how's this up To make you fail Explain that to me A little bit So it's set up To make you fail

[00:09:09] Because if we look at Even like the education system It all starts with The education Right Where the way That the schools Are set up Right now Like yes There are unaccredited Programs out there And I do encourage People to seek out Those unaccredited programs Versus an accredited program Because they are So much cheaper Accreditation Yes Like almost doubles The price of A cosmetology school program But most people Go into these Accredited schools Because the big brands Are behind them They know them They recognize the name They're slash And that's the reason Why they go there

[00:09:39] Exactly And unfortunately Whenever you look At the demographics Whenever we're talking About beauty school programs It's all women People of color LGBTQ community members But then there's A big demographic That we neglect Whenever we're looking At beauty schools Which is second career Stylist Or single parents And those people Have a very difficult time Finding job placements After graduation Yeah Because we know That this industry Particularly likes To hire young people For their naivete It's easier to control

[00:10:09] Young people It's easier to tell Young people what to do Than somebody in their 30s Who has real workplace Experience that can go Hey I think that that's illegal For you to tell me To do that Or that's inappropriate Or wrong Correct And then they get The next snake Right So that's one of the reasons The second reason Is because of the tuition cost Right The tuition cost Is astronomical For the returns Outside of graduation So the The national average Is anywhere between Seven to nine thousand dollars

[00:10:38] In student loan debt For a cosmetologist That's the average Whenever we've pulled The industry though People can have Upward to thirty thousand dollars In student loans For a cosmetology school program And upon graduation The national average For the median income Is around thirty five thousand dollars Which I know Used to sound like A lot of money Back in You know Ten, fifteen, twenty years ago In ninety three Exactly And that's the thing Yeah In ninety four I was making

[00:11:07] Twenty three thousand dollars Right No thirty three Two thousand dollars And people are still Making that Is the thing They're still Graduating and making that And so There is an issue Of the The pay There is And being able to Pay back their student loans So whenever The federal government Has come in To remove Those federal student loans From these Like accredited programs That are not producing Good result It's for very good reason There has been Really poor outcomes And cosmetology programs

[00:11:36] Have the highest default rate Of any student Like program Creditioning program In the country Yes Our numbers are bad And not only that Cosmetology students Have the fifth highest Amount of student loans Out of any Like school program PhDs Master's degrees Bachelor's degrees In the country Like fifth highest amount Of student loan debt In the country For our profession That enters into A low wage profession Half the time And stuff So it's It's set up

[00:12:06] To make you fail Because of that reason As well And then Because of the structure Of school You're not building A book while you're In school Margaret I want to I want to I want to In what way Because I can see It clearly But can you help Our listeners Understand in what way Unions will help Benefit hairdressers And help them Succeed Yes So one of the Backbones of unions Is apprenticeships And apprenticeships Are really important Because they kind of Provide the new blood To a union

[00:12:35] But they also build In this mentorship program And apprenticeship programs I think will be The future I don't think Beauty schools Are going to go away I don't want people To take away That from what I'm saying I do think Right No They never will Yeah They never will But I do think Apprenticeships Will be very beneficial In the future For providing stability To new professionals Because apprenticeships Are a work Earn as you learn Program So you can enter In that way And whenever you Enter a union Apprenticeship program You usually

[00:13:05] Acquire benefits Like healthcare After six months Of employment On top of making Money while you're Employed So that removes The federal Student loan issue And conversation The debt To rent To home ratio All that kind of stuff But then Retirement funds Are also provided By unions There's also Scholarship funds For their children Provided by unions Sometimes If they're set up Properly and well Right And not only that You have the collective Power to fight For more benefits More rights

[00:13:34] Hold some of the Product companies Maybe accountable For helping Like maybe contribute To like providing Some of these benefits To the people Who they built Their millions And billions Of dollars On the backs of And then you know Decided to go put All their products In a distributor And then cut down Half of the money That we make In the salon From retail sales I mean this is Something that actually Happened back in like The early 1900s too This is History is rhyming Basically at this Moment in time Within the beauty Industry But those are some Of the things That unions can bring

[00:14:04] And benefit people Not only that The legal protections As well too You actually usually Have legal representation Through a union So if you do have An issue with an Employer You can actually Have legal counsel Of how to navigate That and stuff like that Yeah I have teachers Some of my clients That are teachers A lot of my clients Are teachers But that's why They love their unions Because they do provide Services with lawyers To delegate with HR And how they're not Treated fairly And stuff like that Yes

[00:14:33] That is so true Is that we We had an employee That was sexually harassed By one of the partners Kept her at the salon For like three hours After work one day Trying to get her Not to quit And it was like Why don't you go through And hire a lawyer Or at least fight this And it was like Well I have to pay Out of pocket I have to pay Out of pocket Then I have to prove it I have to like So there's no protections For a lot of people And I mean No I can't tell you How many females

[00:15:03] I mean we had another Girl named Jotty That came on To the show And she was telling us About how she was Sexually harassed But that was from An actual client But how many times I've heard it After she talked about that People reached out And were like I was sexually harassed By the owner of the salon I was sexually harassed By one of the employees Yeah You know I have email employees That's a whole conversation Right Sexual harassment Actually in the salon community Is a huge issue That we don't talk about Because we are so casual With each other

[00:15:32] And there is a kikiing And there is a joking There's a camaraderie there Yeah But sometimes those things Do get kind of brushed Under the rug But like when it comes down to it Those things are very important And they do create Unsafe environments For people to even feel Comfortable speaking up And speaking out Not only about like How they're being made to feel About what's happening to them But also If they see something else Happening out within the salon Floor as well too And so Not only that We sometimes see clients Do it to You know

[00:16:01] The service provider And it's kind of like Well you kind of have to Suck it up I had a dime Every time I was sexually Marroused by a client And then I would talk To my boss about it And he would just say Well it's money Just whatever Get over it Exactly That's where things are And that is Not the way We should do things Right And I think That's the point That you're trying to make It's like We had a union rep That was outside Of the salon And had nothing To do with the shop But just to go through And ensure your safety That is why We kind of go through Needless representation

[00:16:31] Absolutely it is And it's like imperative Like so For my personal story Which I can share A little bit of I kind of have to be careful About it But I had an ADA lawsuit And that's kind of What ended up happening to me Whenever my health Took a turn Part of my experience With like understanding What happened With the labor laws And stuff like that And like realizing The gaps that we Like I experienced And faced Was a part of this Where I was like I can't believe I don't have a union To fall back on In this situation

[00:17:00] Like I would have Really benefited From a union Through my own experience And so That's another reason Why like in the back Like in the background During all of my life Like transitions And stuff I was thinking like God somebody's Got to create a union Somebody's got to create a union I used to see like Destroy the hairdresser Promoting like more Like the you know Hourly pay And they were starting To open like A hairdresser Healthcare like works Like you know What is it called Marketplace And that kind of thing I was like They're close

[00:17:30] They're close But we need We actually need The union Like let's just Actually like Do the union Because that's That's going to be An important thing But it is going to be A really radical shift For the industry To go back To a union Infrastructure Because the way That the industry Has evolved Over the last 30 years Has really pushed us Farther and farther Away from being able To unionize And that's A big issue That we're trying To really You know Provide more information On if you're interested In this

[00:18:01] Do you think That that would Actually bring Hairdressers together Because in my industry That I've noticed Throughout my entire Industry life It seems as though Hairdressers are kind Of dog eat dog A little Backstabbing A little Do you feel like Unions would really Bring hairdressers Together saying Hey we need to Work on all of this Together because We're all going Through the same thing Do you feel like Unions would help Do that I mean It definitely will Because a union Can't thrive Outside of that Right

[00:18:31] You have It's a culture shift Like whenever I'm Talking about Creating a union This is not like Tomorrow or in a Year from now We'll have a union This is a 15 year Culture shift Of like hey We have to really Unlearn and unpack How to do things We got to get Some of these people Out of the industry Who are toxic to it And continue to Promote these ideas And concepts Because otherwise We're never going Together and There's there are Certain personalities That do benefit From the way that

[00:19:01] It is right now With that dog Eat dog right Where there are People who do Really benefit From the undermining The individualistic Type of you know Business building And not only that Saying like it's All about like me Me me me me Like what can I Get for myself What can I buy For myself all That kind of stuff Instead of actually What can I give Back to my community What how can I Actually build a Community yeah Am I actually a Part of a beauty Community Right It's what they Call the crab Effect of any Crabs in a bucket They see one crab

[00:19:31] Getting out and They don't want That crab to get Out so they Bring it back down Yes exactly Fail that means I succeed even Though they didn't Really succeed Yes exactly And so it is Breaking that down And so what we Are doing is We are so our Organization um And ourselves like We basically run On a different type Of leadership model Um typically Whenever you think About leadership You think of Like a hierarchy Where you have Like you know The president The vice president Like all this Kind of stuff And technically Those are like My our terms For legal reasons

[00:20:00] Like for the Organization but We actually work With a Exactly right Um but we Actually work With a snowflake Model which is About Sorry I stumble On this word All the time Participative Leadership model Which is more About broadening

[00:20:49] The leadership Instead of it That's also That's also how Organizers who Organize unions And works Places Like approach Things It's about Like trusting Other individuals And I think That that's been The biggest issue Is that Whenever we're Talking about The dog eat Dog we don't Trust one another Anymore We always we're Always looking For that one Thing that people Are going to be Like what What's the catch What's the deal What's the bad Thing about that Person we're Always looking for That we're always Waiting for the Other shoe to drop Instead of really Building trust with One another which Also means we Have to get to Know one another Again we don't

[00:21:19] Talk to each other And trying to live In that vulnerability After being messed With and yeah Being stabbed in The back so many Times just opening Up to that Vulnerability is Super super hard And I do think The unions would Really help out With that with Bonding people Together with Like-mindedness Absolutely because It's also like in Your local salon Community like how Often does another Salon owner talk to Another salon owner Are they ever You know what I Mean like like Think about how Rare that is It's all competition

[00:21:48] Exactly and it's Like well then you Don't actually have a Beauty community in Your local community So let's like Rebuild that aspect And learn how to Connect with one Another again because Honestly we have More in common Than we don't and Not only that we Also like I always Tell people whatever You have a hard Time talking to Somebody about Something look for Your differences Because sometimes Like those differences Can find like build Something for you to Like engage with and Understand somebody a Little bit better too

[00:22:16] So it's it's we and I Think that this is a Bigger reflection on the Culture of just the United States in General right where We're so divided we're So divisive and we Always want to pick Everybody against Everybody instead of Realizing that there's Humans on the other Side as well so it's About connecting with One another right yeah And that's why we Work inside hair salons Right we're I mean Some of us are we Have our own chairs you Mean in suites as well To but then you're Always looking for that Other side you know

[00:22:45] I mean or some help And like what I do is I see someone doing Something that I like And I haven't done I Go and ask them yes And so how are you Do how are you Approaching this haircut Or how are you Approaching this blow Dryer what product are You using you know so Because no matter your Age you can learn you Can learn no matter What I know I was Nerding over one of my Co-workers the other Day when she was doing The scalp treatment Thing and she had it It's like a device That looks at the Health of the of the Scalp I'm out oh my Gosh I've got to learn

[00:23:14] More it was fantastic I Mean I just I live for Stuff like that too you Know what I mean like Just growing like our Skill set of like Under exactly it's one Of those things whenever I went back to school you Know I'm talking to like These philosophers and Stuff like that that have Like published books been In the New York Times all This kind of stuff and I Would explain to them like The salon industry and the Hair industry and be like There's a lot of like Really like unique Interactions that go on in A hair salon that I think A lot of society overlooks Because it's like you talk

[00:23:43] To everybody from every Demographic like that Inters a salon like you Have somebody who's like This is the first time ever For them to get like their Hair colored they've saved Up all their money for Like you know a month on End to go do it but Then there's also like the Lawyers wives the Doctors wives and then Like there's like your Nine to fivers and all That kind of stuff like There's so many different Types of people that come Into a salon that you Really like get to learn About society and the World at large I've lived thousands of Lives and yes that's my Few years of being here

[00:24:13] Because of their stories Absolutely And I thank them for that Yeah so there yeah There's there's a lot That we can learn from People but also from Ourselves if we are open To it and that's exactly What you're what you're Trying to push for That's exactly what we Need you know so what Are there some of the Benefits that you think Are important that people Need to go through and Either unlearn or learn Again that to go through And progress this forward Yeah so I think that we Covered a few of them for

[00:24:42] Sure about the Vulnerability about the The reaching out and Just even like for you Know because I'll talk About this here in a Second about a different Type of salon model but I Think that every salon Model and business model Has its place within the Industry of course and I Like if you see another Booth rent stylist doing Something you're like I Like the way that that Person's building their Business reach out to Them talk to them try and Like connect with one Another because like That's how you're going to Actually build a community And that kind of thing The same goes for like Just commission stylists At other commission

[00:25:11] Salons ask them about Their workplace and What's going on within it And that kind of thing Franchisee salons are the Ones that could probably Unionize the quickest at This present moment in time Just because of the way That the infrastructure is And how large those Corporations are because I Do know that they have they Do provide benefits to Their employees and that Kind of thing but their Turnover rates are pretty High usually really high Yeah so and that's that's Because of a culture thing And you know they're the Unions could help with

[00:25:41] That and that kind of Thing so so there's a There's a couple of Different things there but I think the biggest Radical shift that needs to Happen is thinking about doing Business differently I really Do think that we have to Move away from this Individualism this hyper Individualism that has Existed within the beauty Industry for the last 30 Years I think that that is Part of why it's Collapsing it's part of the Reason why like you know the Self-regulation that we've Had within the beauty school

[00:26:09] System has also failed us as Well and stuff it's you know You have to have other people Around you to hold you Accountable and I think that That is even true within even These micro businesses and Small businesses too so yeah Well where can where can Where can some of these People where can we find or Where can I tell some of my Coworkers or other hairdresser Friends where they can get this Information on what their Rights are yeah so so we are Trying to build some resources

[00:26:37] On our website for that we Don't necessarily have like Labor laws written out Because one I'm not a like Like I'm not a lawyer I don't I don't pretend to be and That kind of thing so I stay In my lane but I do think That looking talking to your Department of Labor huge Just reach out to them first And foremost reach out to Them if you're misclassified Reach out to them because They are the ones that are Going to be able to do Anything about it and then On top of that I do know That there is another

[00:27:07] Non-profit before beauty I Think focuses on the Misclassification of Employment more than others They started out as a Facebook group and now I Think that they are Officially a non-profit that Does provide some services for Legal fees and stuff like That that can help you with Providing you some more Information there but Definitely talk to the Department of Labor that's That's not the person that You're supposed to go to Thank you for Thank you for that okay yeah go To L&I because if you're Going through and I've been Hearing this a lot lately Because I've been giving

[00:27:37] People hitting us up and Sending us emails if you're Going through your Commission employee and They're charging you for Towels they're charging you For back bar they're Charging you to breathe Inside the salon call L&I Do yourself a favor and Find out what your rights Are you know I mean and I think that's why it's Important that you know we Hopefully do unionize Later on in the future Because then you have a Resource to go to but Right now you do and I Know it's kind of hard to

[00:28:05] Navigate guys but call them Up figure it out you want Like even get on your Like AI and ask it to go Through and research it All for you so when you do Call you have the proper Information to talk to Someone about yeah and we Also have social media Reaching out to our friends And other people in the Hairdressing community Beauty industry I mean we're Not just talking we're not Just talking hair we're Talking makeup and nails Reaching out to our beauty

[00:28:32] Industry friends and starting A chat with them and opening Up that dialogue of where They can go to I think Right will build build a Lot of strength and it Definitely does I think The building is a huge Part of it I think that the One issue that we do have Within the industry is Because of the different States laws and regulations And business like like Every state is so I know because you talk About apprentices earning Money while they're Apprenticing and here it's Illegal to earn money While you're in school or

[00:29:01] Doing an apprenticeship yeah Yeah unless you're tipped It is illegal so well and See if they're through So here's a difference Between and I think this Is something that so there Is an issue with the Apprenticeships moving into Different states right now And I'm glad that you Brought this up because There is a difference Between doing an Apprenticeship to licensure Versus a federal Recognized apprenticeship Program to licensure a Federally recognized Apprenticeship that goes Through the department of Labor is mandatory that you Pay minimum wage like you

[00:29:31] Cannot not pay an Employee and that's the Reason why whenever Apprenticeships are moving Into other states people Get really cautious of Apprenticeships because they Think of it the other way Where people are not paid And then they can get Abused and exploited for Their labor instead of Being recognized and paid Out that should be or They're like well just go to The beauty school because I don't have time to do That I don't want the Liability for it the Federally recognized Apprenticeship programs they Are they are a government Intervention into the beauty

[00:30:00] School crisis that is going On but the programs in Themselves are so they have A graduation rate of a 70 percent full book upon Graduation beauty school Programs you cannot have That by any means at all They have a 93 percent pass Rate the first time of Examination you don't have That in beauty school either It's 76 percent so there are Such better statistics there With the federally recognized Apprenticeship program than There are with others and Not only that for the salon Owners out there they're like

[00:30:30] Well what is the benefit for Me you're not the person that Should be having an Apprentice at that point in Time right like you already Have the mindset of somebody Who is going to exploit Because you're thinking About me me me instead of Building the community and Truthfully the apprenticeship Programs are a workforce Solution where it's Allowing people to have a Training program within their Salon so that way they don't Have to wait for the beauty Schools to produce Mediocre results so they're Going to have to spend 20 Grand retraining in the First place so it's right it's

[00:30:59] One of those things where it's Like you know I think it's Really important to clarify the Difference between an Apprenticeship program that is Federally registered versus what I would refer to as an Assistance program which is Truthfully what those Apprenticeship programs that Are unpaid are so right well And here as an assistant and You cannot be an assistant in a Salon in Utah if you don't Have a cosmetology license if you Don't have a cosmetology license or An apprenticeship license it is

[00:31:28] Illegal for you to charge or get Paid any money whatsoever they're Very yeah it's really strange and Strict here which I like yeah kind of Hones in the people that that need To be licensed because I've seen some Shady stuff out there honey oh I'm Sure well and Utah is interesting Because it has the it was the Strictest state in the country for The longest time and I do actually Think that it has to do with a lot Of the culture that's in Utah where It's really controlling of women and

[00:31:58] Women's economy so you're really Going to put all those barriers in Place to really prevent them from Being able to succeed you get that's Just that's that's my intuitive Perception of it oh I can't you Yeah on the head so so yeah so Utah Had a lot of work to do we have a lot Of work to still do in Utah but There's other things across the United States to almost especially For women's rights but I mean if any If we could all just fall under one

[00:32:27] Big banner that would be nice but then Again logistically and culturally you See everything is is good in theory but How do we implement that I mean yeah Implement a union that goes across the Board yeah so so this actually draws back To doing business differently and it Really is going to be a big culture shift To be able to host a union that will Actually be able to thrive and not be a

[00:32:54] Detriment to salon owners and not only That exclude half of the people because Like the biggest thing was like eligibility For being able to unionize is you have to Be a w-2 employee you cannot be an Independent contractor you can't be a Booth runner you cannot be a salon owner And so that excludes about 55% of the rest Of hairdressers that can't be a part of It so how do we like correct this right so I met this wonderful individual named all of

[00:33:23] Shabali out of Nashville Tennessee and They started the very first worker owner Worker owned cooperative salon down there and And it had been yeah but we're gonna get to It so because my so for I've been operating Beyond the chair for about a year and a Half before I met them and I had been Really diving deep I'm like I cannot figure Out a legal loophole to unionize this industry I was like I want to promote I'm talking

[00:33:51] About unions I'm promoting them I have people Ask me every single day well how can we Unionize I'm like if you're a salon owner Which is interesting because salon owners Also ask how to unionize but then once they Learn that they're excluded they're like Never mind I'm not doing that like I don't Want to do that never mind and stuff and so I met Olive and Olive introduced me to the Cooperative salon model which is it's based On the solidarity economy do y'all know what

[00:34:17] The solidarity economy is okay so it's it's An it's an old concept that's actually it's a Very old concept that's been reborn a little Bit in the modern era that we're in because of The economic crisis that we find ourselves in With economic inequality across the globe and So it's actually been recognized by the UN that Cooperatives and mutual aid like organizations And stuff like that are a part of like eliminating

[00:34:46] Poverty and and stuff across the globe so cooperatives What they are is their worker own meaning that The business in itself is owned by all the people Who work there so it kind of blends this booth rent model with the commission salon Model because what they do at mayday salon is that they are all commission Stylists they make 60 40 so 60 goes to the stylist 40 goes back into the salon and they run a democratic

[00:35:14] Salon so they every single employee has a vote on how the salon is operating they also have a vote to what the products look like They have a vote to what the extra money goes to It's like one of the employee owners is putting in more time They just recently had a vote to recognize all of labor and Allow them to have you know a little bit of that worker owner pay go back into their paycheck now They voted on all these things so that way the salon in itself is actually operating as a community and

[00:35:43] Because it's worker owned They can unionize And so it creates this legal loophole that we can actually Rehabilitate this industry providing people with the ability to have their own You know, they're all owners a part of a business But they're also running all their own little micro businesses Like we always do like no matter if you're a commission stylist or booth rent stylist you're running a micro business like within another business Absolutely. I mean, that's just what it is

[00:36:09] And so it's just it's a different model to do this and so they've They're the first one that is doing it right now And they've been open for a year. They've already shown a surplus Um with their their earnings so far in the last year, which is great for the economy that we've been in Um, so they're they're proving the the proof of the concept they're still of course working towards making sure it's very verifiable But cooperative salon or cooperative

[00:36:34] Businesses and themselves were more resilient during the great recession during covid and not only that there is higher productivity rates within the Because they run off that participate participative leadership style Yeah, that that like allows more it It produces more productivity within the salon. It also gives people a better um understanding what leadership is to because everybody is a leader, right? You're building leaders within the actual salon to actually

[00:37:03] Share the responsibility share the load share the risk share the burden So it's not falling all on one person's shoulders, which is why whenever i'm talking about we have to remove ourselves from this hyper individualism We got to rebuild that community because this model literally thrives on being a community So okay, myra, do you know how many control freaks are going to be pissed off? Oh, that's what you just told oh, yeah Yeah, yeah Yeah, I mean the room now

[00:37:34] Yeah, and I get it too. I do get it like be and not only that change is scary Right like like no one really likes change and and but there are people like out there and i've said this earlier Like I think that every salon model is going to have its purpose in place Like I don't think that this is for everybody. I don't because if you're somebody who doesn't get along with others at all You don't need to be a part of this because you're going to drag everybody else down

[00:38:00] Right. It's the same thing whenever like you're working at a commission salon where you have that one bad employee That's putting a lot of stress on your other employees. You kind of got to fire them eventually But this is working in a different way where everybody's an owner So like you all kind of have a you gather together be like hey, I don't know if this person's working out Right, so I don't think that there's necessarily going to be a complete elimination of the independent contractor

[00:38:24] The person that is wanting to just do their own thing or even the salon owner who runs a commission salon that doesn't necessarily want to shift their salon into this model, but the thing is is like eventually You're not going to be able to run that salon So you might as well start building in a structure that allows you to pass it forward So that way you can move on to doing other things if that is what you desire to do Because that's the biggest thing is that we put all of our eggs in one basket a lot of times within this industry and then whenever anything happens

[00:38:54] We are faced with the reality check that oh, I don't know what else I have to fall back on at that moment in time And if you ever get sick if you ever like, you know Have a child or anything like that that really does happen in this industry The cooperative salon models they do provide you with the ability to build in benefits Like for example, um the mayday salon

[00:39:16] They are already starting to use their extra funds to build a fund for like giving back to their community for people who can't afford aesthetic services But another thing that i've actually talked to all about is like building in like, you know The ability to start doing a mutual aid fund to where like if your employees get sick or late They're out for a week They have that little cushion that's saved up within the salon that you can give them and already build in that That kind of safety net too And that's you can't do that if you're a single owner, right?

[00:39:45] There's no way that you can you can't justify it either because it's like well who gets it who doesn't get it? You know those all those kind of things but when it's a collective of people coming together and agreeing upon something It does make it a little bit more feasible. So yeah, so you're watching the state We do have something like that within the state, but that's just here and that's it I mean and the thing about those that the likelihood of you actually getting it Or getting what you think you should be getting is very low, you know

[00:40:12] So especially after covid when people were trying to go through The washington state got ripped off by like what I can't remember how many millions of dollars 600 million dollars in unemployment and everything during that time So there was no money to go through and give to people So if you actually have that structure within your own salon You know and if you work at a salon like this I have had people reach out who are part of a co-op Please reach out to us. We definitely want to talk to you and kind of see how what's going

[00:40:43] Yeah, I'll connect you with all of them That'd be great. Yeah other people understand and hear it because I know a lot of hairdressers out there It's like I can't work With this one individual who owns the salon or a couple different salons doesn't work So they go to a suite But then they lack that sense of community and they'd want to be an owner But they don't have the money or the backing to go through and do it So I think that's a great way to go through and do that and also give back to the other people that you're with

[00:41:12] So exactly exactly it is about and that's the thing is like, you know We we've had the issue that we've had where everybody has gone into this independent contractor Like there was a 600 increase in suite rentals after covid that is an astronomical increase Yeah, that meet that also shows us that like not only are people looking for another way to do their business But it shows us something culturally that's going on where people are not liking the way that things have been run beforehand

[00:41:41] They're looking for another way to do it because they're unsatisfied with the way that things have been done And it's usually because of the silencing of someone's voice or their inability to see where they can grow or how they can grow And I think that this opportunity I think that this this business model does provide us with an opportunity to develop it to being something very unique And not only that just full of community and care as well, too

[00:42:06] Where like you really do have to care about the people that you're working with and it's going to cause you as an employer like Whether like you're a single like employer just starting the salon out waiting for like those employee owners to buy in and that kind of stuff But whenever you're doing that like you have to be very cognizant of who you're hiring at that point in time Yeah, because a lot of the times, you know You just hire somebody right out of school or whatever it is because you need the chair filled This is going to really cause you to really think about who you're bringing in

[00:42:35] And that's where the apprenticeships also come in because then you can cultivate that culture yourself And make sure that the people that you're bringing in understand what that culture is So amazing amazing. Amazing. See yeah Yeah, things have to change. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of people are looking for that change and this could be a different opportunity to go through and look at things differently. That's for sure Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I've been very inspired by Mayday Salon Cooperative down in Nashville. They have really

[00:43:04] Olive has really introduced me to a really unique way to rethink how to do things and providing with Because the biggest issue that I've run into is like i'm kind of an idealist to a degree where i've read theory I i'm my nose is in a book now these days. I look at regulations all that kind of stuff like how can I change it by policy and that kind of thing? But when it comes down to brass tacks, it's like about the money So how can we how can we get the money into people's hands to make sure that not only they are being taken care of

[00:43:30] They're not being exploited and not only that maybe we can build something out of that to provide people with benefits And I do think that this cooperative business model could be the future for that So yeah Now what if you were an independent contractor and you wanted to go through be part of a union? Could that happen as well? That can't happen that way No, no, there is a gay workers union that's starting out with the apps, but I don't know how recognized they are at present And it depends on the state too, but no independent contractors

[00:43:59] If you're a 1099 of any sort with your tax form, you cannot be a part of union because you're your own business owner Yeah, so if you you're you you are your own business owner, you cannot be a part of a union And so having that w-2 classification is what allows you to unionize And so if the entire salon is worker owned because they're all w-2 employees Then you have that ability to And I think that's the direction that people are kind of starting to move towards I'm really starting to see that that's for sure

[00:44:28] So we're kind of like that the ways of the 1099 is there's certain people that yeah It's okay that you can be that, you know be a you're self-employed But the exact same time though, you don't want to get left behind as well, though too And you need to learn how to go through and safer retirement Find out what happens when you're when you are unemployed or when you do get you know, don't don't have any money coming in You know who's gonna help you because

[00:44:54] Nine was it like 95 a hair percent of hairdressers that may get past the 10 years and do retire Don't retire successfully Why is that you know, I mean so there's no one there to educate you or help you or give you any of the structure So I think we're gonna see a big shift here coming up pretty pretty soon So yeah, and I the biggest thing is for me is making sure that it's not something that's behind a paywall This stuff does not need to be behind a paywall for people because

[00:45:23] You're never going to be able to change an industry and the ability for an industry to change and be able to be self-governing at that point in time If you're always putting something behind a business class or a coaching class or whatever it is Yeah, so You know what I mean? Like it's just it's It's it's really maddening for me like to see like all the different things that are out there that i'm like this would be really beneficial I understand that you need to get paid But obviously you're already getting paid well enough because you built your business

[00:45:50] But I do understand it too where people are wanting to supplement their income and all this kind of stuff So that way they spend less time behind the chair But I do think that we have a an issue within the industry where everybody thinks that they want to be a hairdresser Until their body starts really thinking like getting into being a hairdresser and then we don't really have anything to build out of And so that's where we really do need to think about how do we build these structures outside of the salon industry to facilitate people

[00:46:17] Having somewhere to go after they need to move out of the industry or even salon ownership for that matter Salon ownership could be a great investment in the long term, but we all know that like most salons don't succeed or they Barely break even so it's might not be the best investment at that present moment in time. So Yeah, all right So you know back to a little bit more like the with the co-ops What are some of the values that they have that you think is like really important? Yeah, so there are six values in total that are like

[00:46:46] Basically how a cooperative cooperative salon operates The first is democracy where you have to have every single person within that building having a vote Everybody has a say the next part is cooperation So you definitely need to figure out ways to have conflict resolution make sure that you're able to Be able to have that kind of environment That would uh-huh, right? I know. Yeah, and and I think that actually a lot of salons and a lot of salon owners

[00:47:14] Really struggle with the conflict resolution portion of it where it's all bad of like you did this you did this instead of I am noticing something that does not make me feel good and reflecting on I statements instead of you statements I think that that is the first step to right kind of conflict resolution for sure But but cooperation is the second one where you have to have shared power shared risk share responsibility So and that's a part of that agreement, right? The next uh, the third principle is equity

[00:47:42] So you have to confront who has been left out of the conversation who is being excluded You can't have a cooperative salon if you are excluding people or the next part about it People aren't pulling their weight. That's the fourth value participation People have to participate So one of the big things whenever you have a cooperative salon Is that your staff meeting your monthly staff meetings are vital

[00:48:09] You have to attend them because your voice and your vote matter not only that Whenever you're having shared responsibility Everybody has a job and a task to make that salon run It's not on the one salon owner's shoulders to make sure that the back bar is ordered and make sure the marketing is done Make sure everything else is done Every single individual in a salon has a job that they do And so that's part of the participation portion portion of it as well Um, the fifth value is sustainability

[00:48:38] So and this probably rings true for like the sustainability beauty community out there They they recognize these things about like why we should be thinking things differently and doing things differently But we have to think of sustainability outside of just the environment And a lot of times when we think about the environment too, we only think about the globe the planet not necessarily the salon environment Like what kind of environment is your salon? Because if it's toxic That is not sustainable, right? Right So we got to re-evaluate that a little bit

[00:49:07] Um, because we really want to build towards resiliency You know what happens whenever say you have a salon of eight people And one person's partner gets a new job somewhere and they have to relocate and they're a worker owner And that kind of thing What kind of resiliency and sustainability have you already built into your business model to support that? And that even rings true for other types of salon models out there

[00:49:31] A lot of people don't think about do I have a fund already prepared for whenever this person leaves? And so does their 30,000 40,000 dollars a year that you know, they're bringing in or whatever it is Hopefully it's more than that But you know what I mean like that you have to consider those things and then the final value of cooperatives is pluralism and so pluralism is the concept that It's not one size. This is very rough summary here, but one size does not fit all

[00:50:00] There are many ways to do things. There are many forms many local solution And it is not a one size fits all cooperatives can be done in multiple different ways But these values hold every cooperative together as as their business grows And there are many like I think people are surprised whenever they learn how many cooperatives there are within the solidarity economy Your credit union for your banks or cooperatives

[00:50:31] Red mill flour and stuff. That's a cooperative land of lakes butter is a cooperative ace hardware stores. They're cooperative There's a lot of major businesses that are actually cooperatives out there You just don't recognize that that's what they are And so there are ways to do this and show them on a larger scale as well, too So it's not just for small businesses, but small businesses really benefit from them So but you can just after everything you just said those six things if you had that on order

[00:51:00] You know, it's such a well oiled machine. Yeah, and that way you have everyone being part of the success of that business Yes, exactly And that's as opposed to someone that keeps that person in the back And the unemployment room the break room the unemployment room is what I call it All right keeps them from talking shit back there. You know, I mean because they are then there everyone's gonna vote on maybe leaving So that because you're not part of the success. You're part of the detriment

[00:51:28] So accountable is what they are. I mean, I've worked in a salon and I managed it for quite a few years and everybody would complain to me about everything So I started saying we're having monthly meetings. Let's do this and so we'd have monthly meetings and I would go up to everyone say okay You complained to me about several things with every one complaint. I want two solutions That's right I'm accountable So I'd write everything down print everything out and then have the meeting and the meetings would only take an hour and I give everyone

[00:51:55] Okay, so this is a I wouldn't call out names. This is you know, this is a problem that someone's having That's in in the salon not someone but a problem in the salon and um, they gave me two solutions Does anyone else have anything else to add to this and I would let go around in a circle and say you get you get five minutes And I would only allow 10 problems with their solutions and then go around each time And by the time we were done and it was it was solutions like this person isn't washing out the shampoo bowl

[00:52:25] It was stupid stuff and they would hold on to it And just holding them accountable the quiet ones accountable That everything you know when they were done everybody would stay late Even if they had families or had to be to dinner they would wash they would clean and it really helped Everything one run smoothly like a well-oiled machine like jason said now imagine if they were all owners How that conversation and the thought behind every word that they're saying would completely change

[00:52:54] And I think this is a great idea. I love the idea Fantastic I'm glad Yeah Well, and if people want to learn more about it We do have a page on our website strictly about cooperative business models And then we also have another page about converting your salon to a cooperative because existing businesses can convert into a cooperative Like that is something that people can do And we have a list of resources of other non-profits out there that can help you facilitate that

[00:53:21] We are trying to work to maybe build some cooperative development portion of beyond the chair But like right now we're just referring people out to other things that are already available So that way if people want to get started they totally can so Amazing and I will go through and I will put everything into the show notes So you guys get on instagram get margaret to follow beyond the chair Company.com co we go by beyond the chair co is our legal name But we'll just call we just call ourselves beyond the chair

[00:53:50] So be on the chair on instagram I will go through and put your uh website onto the show notes So make sure that you guys go through give her a follow look up her company If you need any information, please reach out to her Because this is definitely something I think is right on the corner that a lot of people be adopting you don't want to get left behind Margaret, thank you so much for being on the show. We really appreciate you Thank you margaret for all your research Thank y'all for having me. This was such a pleasure Thank you

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