Burned Out Not Broken with Frank Sisbarro : Stop Glorifying Exhaustion & Start Setting Boundaries

[00:00:00] hey paula you going on vacation this year oh good god no i'm booked solid until june of 2028 it is an honor to be exhausted to live my dream yeah you look tired bitch real hairdressers telling real stories about their experiences from behind the salon chair and we are now saying the quiet parts out loud this is shit i told my hairdresser hello and welcome back to another episode of shit i told my hairdresser

[00:00:46] my hairdresser we have paula back with us today how are you i'm doing great how are you jason doing good hey guys smash up the likes if you guys don't mind go through and follow us on tiktok and on instagram you guys been getting on there and telling us a lot of your stories really it really is amazing to hear you guys hit us up on our uh website at shit i told my hairdresser.com send us a voicemail if you don't mind from there an email tell us your story you guys want to be on the show let us know and give us a follow on Apple Podcasts

[00:01:16] podcast spotify wherever you go through and get your podcast from make sure you go through and tell 10 of your friends and 20 people you hate because we definitely want to hurt their little ears with our big dumb voices right paula yeah exactly well guys we want to go through and kind of carry on a little bit today with uh the theme of what's been going on we see this major thing kind of hitting right now through instagram

[00:01:40] and it's about burnout and i had someone reach out and this guy wrote a book on burnout and i read it paula what'd you think oh i read it two times it's such an easy read i've read it two times in two days and it's poignant he hits so many important points we know hairdressers their attention spend they've got chronic squirrel just swirl so this book kept you

[00:02:05] interested kept you going saying what's next what's next what's next i mean it's definitely a page turner and a good realization yeah it's a good realization now wait a minute i've been living this he's he puts it so simply so i i very much enjoyed it and would recommend um burned out but not broken truth frank thank you truth i appreciate that so we have frank thank you yeah frank with us today you wrote this book uh you you sent it to me i read it i i'm dyslexic

[00:02:34] so for me i had to listen to it but i listened to at least three times and there were so many times that i was like oh shit that's me you know and it's kind of funny oh that means a lot kind of have a handle on something you fucking don't you know you think like oh god my my shit's right and and you don't you know you gotta put in the work to go through and uh really kind of like and you're still not gonna get it right you're still not right

[00:03:00] absolutely the book um yeah you're good when you went through and it's also like you have some spots where you kind of reflect write things down and that's where the work comes in so it's a book it's a workbook and i think it's fantastic um why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself kind of like how long you've been doing hair for where you worked at you know you're you said you were a salon owner and how this book came about for you and what it means to you sure sure well thank you for having me here

[00:03:30] today you know i i've been doing this i came my mom was a hairdresser my older brother is a barber and i went to a technical high school so didn't grow up with much but knew i needed to learn a trade that was the one thing that my parents instilled in me my mother you know you gotta learn a trade you have to learn a trade so i i started working april of 89 i went right into a salon right out of high school and i worked in the fairfield westport area in connecticut and i was down there for about 18 years

[00:03:59] and then i decided after a while i wanted my own salon so i i moved everybody up the coast a little bit to i lived in milford connecticut and i just opened and and um flash forward i had the salon for about five years i had my lease was up i was i was done it was a great experience and then i went independent and then moved across the country left everything sold my house um and wanted to start over always wanted to come to the

[00:04:29] west coast and that's kind of how this book got started because i started to listen to other hairdressers and how they were suffering so much and then what can i do to leave something behind to do something and you know when you're a young hairdresser and you're grinding and you're trying to build that clientele you know your your your only focus is that but then you're hearing in the background but you need to give back you need to give back when you get older you need to do something to give back and i'm like i don't know you're like i don't have time for that right now

[00:04:59] but now i feel like i'm at a place in my life where you know things are smooth you know i started over from scratch i'm rebuilding my book doing it the way you know i want to do it and that's how this book came about so i was like who can i who can i help with this book and that was one of the things i started to know i mean i was like i started listening to it and i was like oh i'm not burnt out i started going to go through and listening to everything all the words he had to say and i'm like oh my god i do have little pieces of all these things

[00:05:29] that you're saying in the book and in not only that though everyone around me as well though too we don't realize how much burnout it doesn't have to be just from hairdressing we're a bunch of hairdressers and we feel like how this will affect us like this goes for like nursing it goes for like anybody that's kind of like working this hard school teachers you know like my wife's a school teacher and she always hears people saying all the time like oh do it for the kids man what the fuck i know i know

[00:05:58] yeah yeah you know and then you're flying for the kids absolutely absolutely and covid changed everything for me i mean when you know in that way where it's like well wait you're okay if you don't get those roots done in three weeks you know you're gonna you know i mean it's just stuff like that so and i there's a lot that that experience taught me you know it screwed us up in a lot of ways too but it really taught me a lot about how

[00:06:24] you know detrimental is really it or is it you getting in to get that quarter of an inch taken off your hair why do i have to absorb that all the time you know so that was yeah so one of the one of the questions i had for you about your book is like what are the big signs of burnout that people go through and normally ignore i think your body tells you i think pain's in your body um yeah that's definitely a sign of burnout you know um

[00:06:53] just not really liking what you do just getting irritated by the just the smallest thing that people say or or when they ask you to keep you know either come in early stay late for these those are you know and if you don't have you know that you don't have boundaries in place when that's happening yeah so you kind of yeah that's so exactly that's it's like setting those boundaries and sticking to

[00:07:19] them i think is really really important but i think a lot of the thing is like you know we go through and we glamorize the grind you know and i think that's like one of the things like you know that you pointed out in your book it's like people go through and they glamorize it like working hard or overworking and that's like what makes us we should just do we are absolutely i think that's some bullshit you know

[00:07:44] i mean that that oh yeah glamorize that right now all over tiktok there's that quote that's been going around it's a lot longer than this but i need to read like the beginning part of it though it's like it's an honor to be exhausted for the life you once dreamed of it's like is it though i mean you're already exhausted i think more of like you know going through and like making it spiritual that you know you're basically saying like it's okay to be even more exhausted than you already are but when

[00:08:12] you are that exhausted then what's the fuck how are you gonna go through and service those people how are you gonna be nice to them i when the client comes i'm one of those guys that has a really fucking loud face so when my client walks in late i'm kind of like hey let's go yeah yeah and a lot because i'm fucking tired yes it's true you get short you get you find yourself getting short

[00:08:35] or sometimes i would just completely detach while i'm doing somebody's hair i i mean i i'm not a talker too much like i when the blow dryer is on i tend to not talk so much because i don't want to kind of initiate that whole behavior uh because it's just it's uncomfortable it's exhausting you know it just is so i don't say much but i can tell i can leave my body during a blowout i don't know if

[00:09:01] anybody else could do that but i literally can't but i can still be in the room and hear what they're saying you know be like oh yes you know yeah this is both and how your worth is just kind of so it's tied to your out i know you put out on you know i know that's kind of i know part of it it's true it's the hustle culture that's that's our cat's capitalism at its finest you know i mean i think when you first start out you have to hustle you know i mean but yes yes like you can't keep that

[00:09:31] pace up it's like when you're in your 20s yeah but when you're in your 20s you know i know time aside for yourself you know i mean otherwise you will turn into that cranky hairdresser that awful yes the awful curmudgeon that's just like man you have that look all the time yeah i know i know you walk out the coffee mug that says coffee first you know what i mean that you're that asshole yeah yeah exactly paul i'm sorry i'm interrupting you no i just well we were talking about that burnout

[00:10:01] when i when i got into the introduction of your book and read you know when things started to feel heavy for you i connected with that so much it went over through that that same thing after quarantine and reopening and doing the hustle and taking care of clients and really built and i went through some time health wise and i at what point a couple years after that when i felt heavy when did you feel that

[00:10:25] heaviness the the heaviness was being a salon owner for sure um and and the things that i personally went through i actually ended up getting alopecia from that whole experience it stressed me out so much that and it's ironic because i work with wigs for people going through chemo so i'm just like wow this is an interesting way to really identify with people so i kind of turned it around a little bit and i

[00:10:51] didn't have great hair to begin with so it was almost like but it was i knew that the stress and i was going through relationship problems during the time that i had my son so it was like a whole thing that happened but that was when it felt really heavy for me so yeah that was about the time that's that's thing of when even when personal stuff things happen and you've got to hold that space clients as well and it just it becomes like you said heavy so that was perfect work no one can know about it

[00:11:19] no one can know about right right i hear your your shit story no no i mean they just want you to listen to their shit story you know what i mean and it's like you know i had this argument with my wife the other day at dinner because we had this waitress walk over and just be a complete piece of shit to my son which pisses me off you know and then she turned and was actually being a total bitch to my mom

[00:11:45] i'm like whoa i almost my wife looked at me i'm like i should come on jason i got that look from my wife like don't say anything just yet yeah you know when she took our order walked away she was like well she you know she could be having a bad day and i'm like fuck that i'm in customer service too and i'm not allowed to have a bad day right i'm in charge the way you look i can ruin your life right right

[00:12:09] exactly i know challenge me you know what i mean i and we're just ordering burgers i know you know it can be questions do you want on that that's it you don't need to be a bitch about it you know i mean so it's like you know and that's the thing is like you know we're not allowed to have those bad days we make excuses for everybody else true you know i mean but that's if we're not taking care of ourselves we're going to turn into that bitch right right you know i mean it's like you i don't want

[00:12:39] to be that guy yeah i want to be the guy that people are happy to see and not to kind of like well they got my hair right so i'll still go and see him but it won't last up it won't last long right i gained 20 clients from another hairdresser because i got tired of coming in and him being in a really bad ornery mood and they finally came to me and said can we start coming cheap a bit much well yes

[00:13:03] yeah yeah that's how i i've had that as well i've had there's a there's always that notorious hairdresser in town that's high all the time that's calling the clients cheap i mean this guy that i he was a i don't even but i got so many clients from him because the outrageous things that he would do and his client he was a good hair cutter and but all of the other things so like you said you do get

[00:13:31] clients that way too and some people you know are suffering i guess worse than you know i could even imagine because yeah this poor guy but he he lost his whole book for that reason that'll happen it happens yeah burnout one of the things that you mentioned in your book though is about like the lies the damaging lies that stylists believe about like the success that they can get you know i mean

[00:13:58] so what are some of those myths that you have in your book that hairdressers just believe the lie well of course the the being so busy six days a week that you have no time i mean and that you could handle that and that's normal you know to me that's the one that stands out um and and other things that just so many things that you're not prepared for in school and and no one prepares you

[00:14:22] for when you're too busy what that does to you and the money the money might be great but it never makes you happy you know never fulfills that need i think and that's the you know it's making all this money is is a big miss i think that's the that's the things i always see people like on social media posting their books like oh fully booked until june fully booked until right like okay that's great you know what i mean but does that mean that you're successful like how much are you charging for that

[00:14:51] haircut because i mean i know people that charge like not that much for haircuts they're bending backwards and hurting themselves and they're fully booked and like on paper you look like oh my god you really know your shit you got it going on right then when you're i guarantee if you saw their like taxes at the end of the year if you saw what they actually made you're like you are killing yourself for how much money right that happens a lot yeah yeah and you know they go they confuse being busy

[00:15:20] with being successful that's true that's true and you know saying no it means that you don't care that's a big myth too i think that we have to say yes you know oh yeah yeah when did you when did you come to that because i had to come to that conclusion too saying no doesn't mean that you don't care then i've had people with photo shoots and especially photo shoots saying well do you not care about this

[00:15:45] project you not care about us you not care about this production i would just have to say i just don't have the time or the energy and they did find it as a rejection i mean frank you've had apparently had those successes or else you wouldn't have written about it can you tell us about one of those experiences oh yeah one time i was i was asked to go and do a wedding in Bangor, Maine and i said no and my client

[00:16:12] she was devastated i did her hair and makeup for a she was in theater and i would always go and do you know i was kind of just yeah i was burning the candle at both ends again in my 30s so i was volunteering for theater and acting in theater and it was just crazy so i developed this relationship with this person and actors and actresses can be pretty you know the world revolves around them you know it's just how it is and i think in a way we're attracted to that because it's kind of

[00:16:42] oh wow how could you be that self-centered i love it i want to be like that you know but um no it's actually not that but she wanted me to do her wedding and it was like hours and hours away and i i said no and it killed me because i just i felt awful about that but that was a moment that you know i i remember specifically about saying no and and and it it was it's a practice i you have to be

[00:17:07] okay with that you know i mean it's like you can't say yes to everything no you mean that's where everyone when i when i lived in la that was one of the things i was like you you i carried a kit in the trunk of my car so it was blow dryer brush everything back there i had one at the house just in case you mean you want the salon because i could be driving home and someone calls and they're like hey can you be a capital records at like you know in an hour or so and you're like yes i can be

[00:17:32] there and you haven't eaten dinner yet you're dizzy because you haven't drinking any water and then you're driving up to wherever to go through and do someone's hair who you might not like but the fear is is if you say no they're never going to call you back right somebody else is going to get that opportunity it's a missed opportunity you know i'm like i don't want to live my life like that you know i mean i think no if you are going to go through the opportunities will come to you they will

[00:17:59] find their way to you you can't just live your life in fear that people will never call you back and i think that's like one of the biggest myths that hairdressers you know because sometimes you have to say no and that's okay so you miss that on a haircut or two so what you know you'll make that money but uh what do you think frank that's like one of the biggest ways that hairstylists go through and give away their power without realizing it yeah that's a good one i think one of one of the

[00:18:27] ways is when you get a client that comes in that tells you that they weren't happy with their last hairdresser and and you can see why because you can you can look at the haircut the haircut's off it's not balanced you go through this whole time to um get it all balanced and you show them in the mirror exactly what you're doing and then they take you on this dance and they make you cut it the way

[00:18:52] that they made their other hairdresser cut it that's wrong and then so that's when you start giving away your power i think and it's hard i've had it it's it's happened so many times and it's not until later on you're like oh we're dancing this dance again aren't we you know where you're gonna take you take the client takes the reins they start telling you oh no this piece needs to be shorter and the next thing you know you know then the whole crown is gone and they're flat again it's your fault

[00:19:20] yeah oh no yeah i've been there yeah happened a few times so many times what hairstylist fucking hasn't been there man i mean it's just like yeah right it is if you're a hairstylist and this starts happening to you and you let it happen then that's on you you've definitely given your power right yeah you need to be able to go through and explain the haircut why hair moves a certain way why is it going through and like and then actually kind of pick their brain and be like you know why do you want

[00:19:50] your hair to move like this what do you want what's the end result it's like kind of like this here's what's going to happen right and then if they go through and they tell you like well i still want you to do this i'd be like well go back to your old hairstyles because they seem to be pretty open to your suggestions i won't be yeah exactly but i i think also when you start to believe that if you don't please all these people and do whatever it takes that you're not going to be successful and that you're going to lose you know you're you know yeah you give your power away because

[00:20:20] yeah yeah i am not for everyone you know i mean people that listen to the show i'm not for every one of you guys right too it's okay that's all right yeah yeah yeah everyone's gonna like me i've had people tell me they don't like me that's okay i am not for everybody and you have to be okay with that aspect you do that we're in yes that's that's humble pie especially when you you have

[00:20:47] you've had you know a career of over 30 years of people that have followed you everywhere and then you leave and you move and you're not for everybody and it's it's like what am i gonna do quit now give it up and you know what i mean like you you you're either it's either do or die right you just are gonna like i just recently had that happen receptionist was like oh um this client is gonna go go to millie she just didn't feel like it was a good connection between the two of you and i

[00:21:15] was like oh my god it still hits you like wow yeah yeah pick me you know i have people saying other people oh i had i had a girl like send someone else's chair and then look at me give me the smug look like i'm in someone else's chair and i'm like i don't care i know number two i don't have to put i don't have to deal with your shit anymore you know what i mean and not like that oh my god i

[00:21:41] don't have to blow dry your gorilla hair anymore you know because she has like hair yeah yeah you know they kind of hair you're blow drying sweat starts in the back of your neck all the way to your ass crack and you're thinking about i would rather do construction than do this why aren't i why aren't i in construction mate you know like yeah i'm like you're contributing to my arthritis right now yeah yeah exactly that's funny like that you know i'd rather i'm sorry i'd rather have the

[00:22:07] easy ones that are really nice and sweet to me you know what i mean as opposed to oh yes but i've but i've hair i accept that it's gonna hurt my feelings you know and i'm and i i sit with that hurt for a little while and then i i just you know what is it one of my co-workers like you got to set the hostages free and i'm like what she's like yeah just let him go and i i just i i love that

[00:22:31] i love that you know because it just you could but you because i i accept it i'm sensitive this is why we do what we do right we're made this way we can't just be a hard ass all the time and although it's i worked with hairdressers that were that way really tough and i learned a lot from them but i i can't be that way so it's i try but you so you really have to protect yourself you do what you want and you

[00:22:56] want it's really my wife tells me she's like you cannot take criticism and i'm like well fuck if anybody knows me it's her you know what i mean and i'm like yeah dead fucking right yeah i think now the toughest criticism comes from the people who know me really really well you know i think yes this podcast i've had so many people like talk shit to me that i'm kind of like i you want to what now

[00:23:21] it's like okay whatever basement you're texting me from or where i'm just down enjoy it you know i'm not gonna be down there with you you know and when you just said like let the hostages free i was like oh that resonates you know yeah yeah you have to learn how to like let that go you do you do and we're all like no for me it's like meditation you know what i mean i'm like i meditate and that's

[00:23:46] where i let things go i let things sit there and then let it go yeah you know how to learn how to really just do a good comeback to shut them down and it's unfortunate unfortunate that i had to learn this skill but i've had hairdressers come up to me and say you know i really don't like you and i will tell them you obviously like me enough to come up to me and tell me you don't like me and you wasted

[00:24:09] your breath i will allow you to ghost yeah keep on disliking me that's fine yeah i like that yeah i it's not my job to make you happy and it's the same with clients yeah it's made it's my job to make you pretty and happiness and in looking good yet if you're just not happy can't help you yeah and i've had oh man that was a tough one to learn and i was probably in my late 30s when i learned that one

[00:24:36] yeah yeah so frank you moved from the east coast to san diego my hometown yeah i actually live like really close where i grew up and now but uh one of the things you had to go through and do is reinvent yourself and i've done that moving from la to seattle i've had to reinvent myself you know what are where we say some of the biggest mistakes you made because i think learning from your

[00:25:02] mistakes is probably the best thing anybody can do a lot of people don't like to admit that they've actually made a mistake it's kind of hard for us to admit it yeah now so what were you what would you say some of the biggest mistakes people make when they need to go through and like reinvent themselves because you actually had to do when you open the salon you had to reinvent yourself that way right dresser and then moving right across the country it's a big fucking move yeah i i felt

[00:25:27] safer because i had my core people when i opened a salon and i made sure that when i opened it wasn't you know enough to the the overhead wasn't so much that i couldn't take care of it on my own but moving you know i i set my you know i set myself up i saved a little cash i had my home that i was renting out that was helping with a little bit of income but the biggest thing for me and still that

[00:25:51] i struggle with is comparison comparing myself to other people and i had a i had a blueprint of stuff that made me successful but i never felt that it was good enough and it's the basics it's you know i was trained in the 90s you know and and so i do traditional foil i do one process haircuts all the stuff that's considered boring now so the first eight or nine months of me working here i was like i'm not going to be that hairdresser anymore i'm going to be i'm going to do a lot of other things that these

[00:26:19] young kids are doing and i'm and that really screwed me up because my how i got busy was how i should have what i should have focused on in the in the beginning you know and what i'm comfortable with and not doing things that i don't like you know you get to a point in your career where you don't we know we were coming up you had to know everything and be good at everything and if you weren't you were a failure you know i remember i had bosses tell me that oh if you can't do updo's

[00:26:45] if you can't do uh you know and there's certain things you just you know you know what you're good at you should stick with whatever has been you've been successful in and that's worked for me and i found the same people i find these like people that remind me of my old clients it's crazy you know it's so so that's where i finally you know yeah yeah that was going to be my next question because when you said you get to define your your version success at any age and i was going to ask you how

[00:27:14] you did that and you just answered that question for me and that's a really good statement you do get to redefine yourself and in any career too like any and this one especially because options in our career in this industry are vast very very vast so yeah i i don't beat myself yeah yeah i don't beat

[00:27:39] myself up anymore that i'm not the best um you know person to do a double process you know like i'm not that's not my bag i i'm too nervous for that you know i just uh i don't i but i would do it to myself i would put myself through it to prove to myself that i could do it i'm like why why do we do that to ourselves but why you know i don't really want to do this i know yeah i know

[00:28:05] yeah being true to yourself yeah yeah it's it took a long time so what are the some of the things that we could do to go through and like kind of reduce the stress of like increasing our income and not having to worry about that you know i i always say again keep your overhead low yeah um i yeah keeping the overhead low yeah yeah i'm frugal very very frugal but i'm not likewise exactly

[00:28:34] there's exactly yeah it's there's a big difference and it's a practice you have to learn this especially coming from a you know a not a wealthy background you know you do go through those periods where you will spend on things you know and then you reel it in because you realize that the you know the and the old you know people the bosses you know from back in the day would love when i would go when i bought my house when i would get a you know a new car because they're like oh yeah you got to keep

[00:29:02] working to pay for those things you know we need those things but i don't yeah i live completely different now i'm a minimalist and i love it i love every minute of it i like having the money in the bank yes i i read just a time i've changed everything i sold my home i live in i believe i live in um this amazing i live in a pool house on this woman's property and i love it i feel like a teenager i'm not

[00:29:30] kidding you i i just i i pay hardly anything everything's included it was a blessing to find this place it's two minutes from the salon um i don't want to own anything right now i love the freedom of knowing that if i want to say no to a client if i want to um not work take work a four-day week i can it might not work for everyone but i just love it you know so i know you don't have to get up and

[00:29:59] mow the lawn every sunday you don't have to pull the weeds no i did it i did it all by myself for 20 25 years yeah 25 years i lived in a little beach cottage and it was beautiful it was great but i always felt like you know being a single person when the roof needs to be replaced when the decks need to be done when this needs to be done i just i didn't want to be beholden to uh working like that

[00:30:26] to pay for those things anymore so it's it's you know might not work for everybody but it's it's working great for me so far you know so it everyone goes through and they like people go through and they measure themselves up by how big their houses are how what the most expensive car they have or you know and i'm like for me i'm like i'd rather live in a modest house like where i'm at now where everything is really comfortable and i can like go and like we're we're taking a two

[00:30:52] week vacation here in a couple of months you know i mean to italy right now and it's like right i'm not stressed out about no everything is paid for ahead of time we got a great apartment out there and it's like i'm gonna go and just chill out for two fucking weeks and recharge and eat great food right right like oh my god my clients and fuck that you know i mean it's like you need to have that happiness and not have the stress of coming back and having to pay for that big house because

[00:31:18] the majority of people out there what you don't see is how much they actually owe or they're that's true that's right pay for that big house yes it's true and you don't see what their finances and i think the the you know your i guess middle average i don't know what the ranges are as far as what we make as hairstylists but i'm gonna say you know six figures 100 000 a year is is good money

[00:31:46] but it's really not that great not today maybe 20 years ago it was great but we we haven't we haven't going up like we we sort of are capped and there's your body can only do so much so you really need to it's so important to live within your needs i can't even stress it enough you know so exactly and really take care of yourself well frank yeah it's been a pleasure going through and talking to you i am gonna go through wherever you can go through and buy this book i'm gonna put that in the show

[00:32:12] notes so everyone knows where to go through and pick this up i definitely encourage you to go through and pick it up it's an easy read but it's got so much information inside this book that you're gonna be just kind of going through and reading and going like oh my god this is totally me because that's exactly what i did if there's one statement we kind of need to go through and kind of finish off on was i gotta finish with your statement buddy which was like burnout didn't break you it just woke

[00:32:38] you up and this book woke me up some things that i haven't thought about in a while so frank thanks for going through and writing this we're never gonna go through and thank you help you promote this and guys pick it up it'll be in the show notes thank you it's that time for a little bit more shitology talking about setting some boundaries hey paula do you mind coming in for

[00:33:08] over christmas day and taking care of me and my family we really go through to need our hair done or nails done it's the only time we're ever gonna see each other for the next like three years you mind coming in yeah yeah i suppose i can i'll make it worth your while i promise oh well great um so what's this it's your tip is this it's it's a coupon to a car wash then with that stay shitty

[00:33:34] and see you next time hey listener persons if you're enjoying this podcast please give us a rating on apple podcast spotify iheart radio or amazon prime podcast or wherever you get your favorite shit it definitely helps out our algorithm also check out our shitty posts on instagram at shit i told my hairdresser where you can give us a follow and like some of our content if you'd like to get your story on our podcast go to our website at shit i told my hairdresser.com you can leave us a voicemail

[00:34:02] using the green mic icon or send us an email and if you like us tell 10 of your friends and if you see shitty listener persons